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Vince Russo On Jim Cornette, Pole Matches and Why He Hates Wrestling Now
Vince Russo (@THEVinceRusso) is a professional wrestling writer, booker and bestselling author. He joins Chris Van Vliet to talk about why he hates watching wrestling now, some of the biggest misconceptions people have about him, the storyline he was most proud of booking during the WWF Attitude Era, why he would book David Arquette to win the WCW Heavyweight Championship again, why he decided to make himself the WCW Champion, how the booking in TNA differed from WWE and WCW, his thought on wrestling ratings and much more!
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“It’s not the same, it's that simple. It's not wrestling, like bro, baseball. Obviously, this year, Chris, they made some adjustments because they wanted to popularise baseball and three and a half hour games were killing the sport. So they changed some things, but they didn't change the basic fundamentals of the game. In wrestling, they changed the fundamentals of the game. It's not the same, and a lot of people from my era are not interested in this representation, in this presentation of wrestling today. And I'm one of those people.”
“It's all about the fake match and has nothing to do with the characters and the story. I mean, that's it bro, you know, back in the day going all the way back to Bruno man. It was all about characters and story. That's what draws the casual fan. Wrestling matches don't draw a casual fan, that's why I did crash TV. Five to eight minutes, the matches are over, boom boom, what's next, boom. You turn it on today then the main event of Raw starts at 10:30. Bro, if I'm not a wrestling fan [of] in-ring action, I'm not watching it, because the reality of the situation is whether we want to believe it or not, fans of the in-ring action, that's a very niche audience. That is a very niche audience. That's why I knew when I started writing it WWE, bro, I had to open that up. Because if you didn't like wrestling, you weren't watching the show. So how was I going to get people to watch the show? Real simple, create characters that they fell in love with and they were emotionally tied to, and then give those characters story, because now you gotta you got them hooked now they gotta tune in every week. All that is gone, it is non-existent, and my thing is Chris, I don't think I would have such a problem if they just changed the name, don't call it wrestling, call it performance art, or call it something else.”
“Because the writers wrote the show. That's why, writers handle this show as a television show, with writing as a background. Bro, look at all the people that are in charge of the wrestling companies today. They're all wrestling marks. Their marks bro. Triple H is a wrestling mark, Paul Heyman is a wrestling mark, Billy Corgan is a wrestling mark, Scott, D’Amore is a wrestling mark. Tony Khan is the biggest wrestling mark. So what are they doing, bro? Here's the difference, they're writing a show within the wrestling bubble. And they're writing a show that they like, and they think is good from their wrestling perspective. That's not what we did, bro. We didn't write a show based on what I liked or they liked. We wrote a show based on those ratings right in front of us. Those ratings that came in every week, we got the minute by minute breakdowns. Who do they like? Where are they turning out? What do we need to give them more of? What do we need to eliminate? There was a science to what we did. And as television writers, bro, here's the biggest difference in the world. With television writers, you're going to create characters, then you're going to take those characters and you're going to put them in a storyline. Then out of that storyline will come the match. So it's the character's story first, build it through story. And then the pinnacle is the match. With wrestling marks and those in the bubble, it's the complete opposite. Here's what they look at Chris, they go down the roster, especially Tony Khan, what would be the best match? If we put so and so against so and so, what would be the best match? So they book match first, and then try to figure out some reason why these guys are having a match. I just read an article two days ago about Tony Khan. And he was talking about, you know, the Forbidden Door. And he was saying like, Oh no, bro, I think we could write a compelling show even though these guys are never face-to-face or there's never a story. They could cut compelling angles on who wants to be the best. Then you wonder why 300,000 People are watching Rampage? Can you imagine, and bro we are 80% there. 80% of professional wrestling matches today are going to prove who's the best? Oh my god. I will take a pole match over that any day of the week, bro.”
“Here's the insanity. Anybody, and obviously, I would not be saying this, if I were not telling the truth. Anybody can look at WCW ratings, and they can look at the first three months before Vince Russo got there. Then they can look at the first three months when Ed Ferrara and myself started tearing down the building and building a new foundation. When you look at those first three months, bro, the ratings are going up. The ratings were working, our plan was going according to exactly what Ed and I discussed. We gotta erase everything they're doing. We've got to build new people, we got to build new stars. It was working perfectly. Then of course, bro, politics played its ugly head. I went home, you know, they brought in different people. In the three months that we had built, after three months, bro, they had brought it right back down to where it was before we got there. Thus they called me back. Vince, we need you to get back here. Honest to God. At that point, when I went back, I knew we lost the audience. I knew there's no way that there's no way we're gonna get the audience back. We had them, we were building for three months, then they went backwards three months to the same crap they were doing. It's done, it's over. Obviously, I had to go back because I was contractually obligated. But I knew at that point, bro, we're not going to get these people back again.”
“First of all, bro, let's be honest here. Okay, I don't have one ounce of ill will towards Jim Cornette, but I know why Jim Cornette dislikes me. I mean, really it's twofold, bro. I told you early on about how people feel about New Yorkers. Jim Cornette hates New Yorkers, hates New York, hates New Yorkers, hates the entire east coast. Okay, so there's that. I'm working with a guy from the south now who absolutely hates New Yorkers. Here I come with this thick heavy accent, I am who I am, so that's number one. Number two, at the end of the day at WWE and TNA I was chosen over Jim Cornette twice. Okay now, if the shoe was on the other foot and Jim Cornette was chosen over me, I'm going to look in the mirror and I'm going to ask myself why Vince? Why did they go with Cornette and not you? I would have looked at myself, but in Jim Cornette’s mind that was my fault. Whatever it is I did to get Vince McMahon and Dixie Carter to choose me over him was underhanded, was you know, what whatever, because they couldn't have been Jim's flaws that he was very set in his ways and very difficult to work with. It couldn't have been that, it had to be something Vince Russo did. So that's where all this stems from and then of course, bro, he's turned it into folklore, you know. I actually know Jim's big on, you know, the old time Cauliflower Alley Club and all that, right? I even said let's go on online, pay-per-view, online. Let's have a one-on-one debate. Let's charge X amount of dollars. Every single penny goes to the Cauliflower Alley Club. I have no problem confronting you face to face. I don't want a penny from this and you've got some old talent, old time wrestlers really down on their luck that could probably use a few dollars. He outright refused. Why did he refuse bro? Because it will kill his gimmick, that's why he refused. To me, whether it kills your gimmick or not if you love wrestling so much and you love those that built wrestling so much and you financially can raise money for these wrestlers. I would have done it in a heartbeat.”
“Absolutely bro you don't hear me say mean things about him at all. As a matter of fact, bro, I probably put Cornette over at least once a week, I put him over. Absolutely bro. It's folklore. It's, it's, you know what he's created with his, you know, cult. And God forbid he ever went back on that. Then in his mind his people would never look at him the same.”
“That's folklore bro. I was in the business, I started writing about I've roughly say 96. I went to 2012, that’s 16 years. A lot of that 16 years bro were two shows a week, plus pay-per-views. Okay, I dare anybody in those 16 years with all those shows I wrote I dare you to come up with 10 pole matches. I dare you bro. I dare you. You can come up with about three because that's what I remember bro. I remember green slip on a pole match. I remember Viagra on a pole match. Mrs. Bagwell, Judy Bagwell technically was not on a pole, she was on a forklift Okay bro and what was what was after that, go ahead. Maybe it is more than three. I just said there are three to me that immediately come to mind, but come on bro. Again, bro, they love creating the folklore. We're going to create folklore, but here's the problem, bro. When you go to anybody that really cares enough and goes back and does the history. You it's all there bro. You will find out what is truth and what is false. Bro, if I booked all these pole matches, I have no problem saying that. Why would I [care], I don't give a crap, bro. I'd have no problem saying it. But what I'm saying is, bro, it's not what you've created over the years.”
“I'd rather try something new than repeat a match we've seen a billion times before that's how I am. I'd rather try something new then just go back to the well a million times. The Dog Kennel from Hell is probably number one, and I'll tell you why, Chris I swear this is the God honest truth. I think of the concept because The Boss Man, our story revolved around the little dog Pepper. Okay, so I thought of the concept but in my head, in my head they are attack dogs, you know, they're police dogs, the teeth are out and saliva is coming out and they're circling the ring, that's the picture in my head. So now bro, I’m at the building and they bring the dogs in and [someone says] Vince here are the dogs for the match. I walk over to look at the dogs and bro, the first dog licked my hand. And I'm like, bro, I never thought of what if they're not attack dogs? What if they are pets? you know what I'm saying? Like that's exactly what happened bro these were the lamest, laziest [dogs]. I swear to God, and like I said I 1,000% blame myself for that because I never took that into consideration. I'm literally convinced these are going to be attack dogs. So since they weren't that actually sucked.”
“I don't watch Smackdown, but I will say this. I'm sorry, I think Roman Reigns is great. I think The Usos, you know, I think everybody is great. But Chris, I also think the bar has been so freakin lowered that when you do have a storyline and it's the only one they have, it's the greatest thing you've ever seen. Listen, I know I'm in the minority. Like I said, I'm a big fan of Roman Reigns, like The Usos. Bro, I'm sorry, The Bloodline, I've seen this play out a billion times before. You know, Sopranos, Godfather, I mean, you name it. So listen, I know I'm in the minority and that's fine, but I just refuse to lower the bar man.”
“I watched AEW, the first year and a half. And it was a massive, massive waste of my time. And I basically said when I turn 60 I'm not watching this anymore, this is a total waste of my time. At 60 years old, I'm closer to the end in the beginning. My time is very valuable, and this is just not worthy of my time.”
“Bro. Listen, I speak the truth. And Chris, I'll be honest with you, speaking the truth really did not weigh well for me when I was in the wrestling business, bro. It's, you know, in the wrestling business, the bottom line is, you know, bro, it's, you know, it's carny. And you've got a lot of backstabbers and liars and politicians. And when you're a guy from New York, and you come in and you just start laying down the truth. I mean, that doesn't work. You know, it's so cliche. But the adage of people don't want to hear the truth and they can’t handle the truth. That is so spot on when it comes to me.”
“I think first and foremost, listen, let me be honest. Chris, first and foremost. In general, people don't like New Yorkers. I mean, it's that simple, they don't like New Yorkers. They think New Yorkers are brash, and they think New Yorkers are arrogant and have a chip on their shoulder, when that is the complete opposite. First of all, New Yorkers are 100% truthful. We don't beat around the bush, we you know how we feel with face to face kind of people. Second of all, man, when you live in New York, you understand it's a dog eat dog world. It really is every man for himself, so that's the way you are raised. And again, look at the people in the wrestling business from my backyard. We're talking about you know, Bubba Ray, we're talking about Taz, we're talking about Tommy Dreamer, that's how we are bro. That's how New Yorkers are. So like I said, number one, people don't like New Yorkers. Number two, bro, even though it was 23 years ago, 24 years ago, they think I'm the guy on TV. And basically, Chris, my attitude was this. When I played it on-air character in 99. My character and my attitude was this. You want to hate New Yorkers? You want to think New Yorkers are a certain way? No problem, I am going to magnify that by a million. And that's exactly what I Did. I went out there, and I was the New Yorker that everybody really thought New Yorkers were. And bro, it just blows my mind 24 years later, that people think I'm that guy. Bro if people knew the real Vince Russo, you just have no clue. Chris the other day, bro, I'm down here. I'm a big you know Chris like I don't sleep well. And a lot of times when I'm watching TV, I just get my little gimmick here and I just say YouTube, and it brings me to my YouTube feed. So whatever's on that. I was on YouTube the other night and I ran into people surprising other people with puppies as a gift. Bro, I'm crying my eyes out. I've got an English Bulldog who's my pride and joy Penelope. I'm crying my eyes out over people responding to getting a dog that they wanted. Bro, that's who I am. I'm passionate about the Giants, I'm a passionate fantasy baseball player. Bro. I love getting all my work done early because as soon as my work is done, I hop in my 2000 jeep, I live in Colorado and I point it to the mountains. Bro, that's that's the guy I am and Chris, here's the bottom line. I wouldn't talk about wrestling at all, if people didn't ask me. Chris, I am not a wrestling fan. I do not like today's wrestling at all. I only watch Raw bro because SportsKeeda pays me very well to watch Raw. I don't watch anything else. I don't care about it. I am not a fan about it. But if you ask me a question, I'm going to give you a true answer, that's my extent of being in the wrestling business in 2023.”
“I had a conversation with Vince McMahon, not a conversation, I don't ever want [a conversation]. [It was] A text exchange text and an email, bro. literally months before the FDA’s came out. And I offered my consulting services, because I would never go back to wrestling on a full time basis. Never go out on the road. never be with those politicians, never. [What year are we talking about?] 2022. Yeah 2022. So I offer my consulting services, I will sit here, I will look at your show, I will tell you why people aren't watching it. If perhaps you want me to work on a particular character, I'll be happy to do that. I'm not coming to TV, I've got no interest in making this my job, right? So Vince wrote back and said, Okay, I want you to watch Raw the next couple of weeks and send me your notes. And I said, Okay, what are you paying me for that? And he said, Oh no, I'm not paying you for nothing. You know, you have to prove yourself. And I'm like, achieving the highest ratings in the history of your company wasn’t me proving myself? Vince, you know, things have changed, the audience has changed. And I just said Vince with all due respect. I don't work for free, bro. Like, I'm in my 60s bro. I'm doing well on my own. I don't have anything to prove to you. Because you know what I did. So I'm not doing this for free. Bro. He sent me back this scathing email. How dare you! I would have jumped at the opportunity… And I didn't even answer it. I didn't even answer it. Because I'm like, Bro that's ego like that. That is ego and I'm like bro, I'm not going to work for free in hopes of you taking me on as a consultant when your product absolutely sucks. I was doing it because I hate having to watch the product, so if I could help improve the product, great. I wanted to do it on my terms where I'm not interested in working full time, and bro at the end of the day I could have helped you. I could have helped make that show better but I'm not doing it for free. And that was it. Like I said, bro, he wrote me a real nasty email that I didn't even answer. I don’t have any interest in even consulting now, none.”
