Predicting John Cena's Final Match, Most Annoying Chant, Who The Real GOAT Is, Worst Booked Match Ever w/ Sam Roberts

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Sam Roberts (@notsam) is a professional wrestling podcaster. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in New York City to discuss whether John Cena could be the greatest of all time and his heel turn, The Rock's work as The Final Boss, the worst worked match, Royal Rumble winner and fan chant, R-Truth showing his more serious side, his favorite Undertaker entrance and more!

On what makes someone the greatest of all time:

"First of all, I think that, greatest of all time is not necessarily based on the number of championships. I do think that you're not wrong about that, because it's hard to think that The Rock, if he had had a longer career, it's not like he wouldn't have been in the main event scene. That's the only scene you put a guy like The Rock in. I don't see that character evolving out of the main event space. So I think that you're right about the 17 championships. I also think the thing about the Attitude Era is that Stone Cold had the title more times than he probably should have, and a lot of people did because they were switching around that title like crazy. I think what's amazing about The Rock is that he came up in the Attitude Era. It’s one thing for Stone Cold, who had this really nice career under him. It's not like he was guaranteed a main event spot at all. It never looked like he was going to get there, but the fact that he had this foundation meant that once he got there, he was ready to be there, whereas The Rock was just there naturally. He's Flex Cavana in USWA for a couple of months, then he's showing up at the Garden, getting booed out of the building, and less than a year later, he's quickly becoming the hottest act in wrestling, and he doesn't buckle under the pressure."

On The Rock being The Final Boss:

"I do wonder, with The Rock though, had he stuck around longer, and how much longer? Because The Rock, and smartly so, never gave himself a chance to get stale. We don't know what that would have been like. Is there an ability to evolve consistently enough? And I think there is, and maybe he takes a year off here and a year off there. But yeah, I feel like The Rock is just one of those characters, and there's very few of them that's meant to just exist in this bottle, and it was just lightning in a bottle for the period that it was, and then he can come back. Honestly, especially once we get removed enough from it, and you and I can have the conversation when it's time, there's going to be a moment in time to have a real conversation about The Final Boss character and how good it was and how impactful it was, not to say it's over, but that build to WrestleMania 40 with The Rock becoming The Final Boss, and again, what is that character around for two months? That's it. I mean, he pops up here and there, still. But really, the run of The Final Boss is Las Vegas press conference to night after WrestleMania 40 say. People can get frustrated at the lack of Final Boss since then, but the reality is that run in a bubble, is one of those untouchable character arcs."

On whether The Final Boss could be The Rock’s best character work:

"I mean, to me, definitely by far the best thing he's done since being a full-time wrestler. You would have to go back to $500 shirt, people's eyebrow, coming on TV every week with a new catchphrase every single week. It's that, and Final Boss, and that's your conversation today."

On whether he saw the John Cena heel turn coming:

"The real answer is no. It was, of course, part of the conversation, in the sense that it was like in the realm of possibilities of what could happen with this build-up to Cody selling his soul, and we know that WrestleMania is next. Of course, the idea of John Cena could turn heel is one of the places where that conversation organically goes. That's one of the sort of on-paper possibilities. But no, the reality of it, and in that moment no, and I think that's what made that moment so amazing. There are people who put on their hindsight goggles and go, 'Yeah, I knew. I saw that coming.' No you didn't dude, you did not. You knew it could happen, but you didn't see that coming in that moment. I didn't see it coming. I thought it was, in that moment, perfectly executed."

On there being no real explanation for the heel turn:

"I've said, Let him cook a million times, and people will kill me in the comments for saying you got to let him cook. But you sometimes you do. I think that there could be a payoff to this coming. I think that to say there is no payoff before we've had the opportunity for a payoff beyond WrestleMania, to be upset at the end of WrestleMania, and go there was no WrestleMania payoff. I get that. But to go there's overall no payoff to this heel turn. I don't accept that, because we're in the middle of it. You can't go, 'Hey, I'm in the middle of this thing. Where's the end already?' That's not how storytelling works. And I think that there have been enough breadcrumbs throughout. Cody consistently brings up The Rock in these promos. So it's not like they're going, 'No forget that Rock thing ever happened,' because Cody is not letting us forget it happened. And then on SmackDown, John Cena said, 'I made you think I sold my soul to The Rock? I didn't do that.' So we are getting these slow but sure answers along the way, and maybe this character is taking months to really flesh out, and people didn't expect it. But I do see a payoff in the future, because I don't see Cena leaving as a heel."

On the possibility of John Cena vs. Roman Reigns:

"I would like to think so, but I'm not sure that we're gonna get a Roman match, to tell you the truth. Do I want it? Yeah, I really want to see a Roman match. I think the idea of Roman coming back, I think there's such a wonderful story to tell, because when John and Roman had that match, that was the passing of the torch match. John Cena made it very difficult for Roman Reigns. 'You need to learn to cut a promo kid.' You know what I mean? He made it really tough for him. And the idea that this Roman Reigns could come back and go, 'Okay, John, guess what I learned how to do?' This is the Roman Reigns that John has to deal with, I think would be an incredible story. I just don't 100% know where it fits in. I think it could. I just don't know where it fits into the timeline with the fact that Roman, his priority number one would be where he left, which is getting laid out by Seth Rollins and Bron Breakker. I personally feel like Seth Rollins and his Money in the Bank briefcase is going to be used for the WWE Championship. I don't think it's a World Heavyweight Championship win. I think Seth Rollins, whether it's John Cena or Cody Rhodes, Seth Rollins is going to use his briefcase to get the WWE Championship. Then that could lead to a WrestleMania match where Seth is defending that title against Roman Reigns."

On Roman Reigns never officially turning babyface:

"No, and I don't think he ever will officially turn babyface, because I don't think he'll ever abandon that character. But I remember saying on NotSam, I was like Roman Reigns' babyface turn is the minute he loses the championship. Because the minute he loses the championship is the minute we all get a second to breathe. It's the minute we all get a second to reflect. It's the minute we all get a second to appreciate. And lo and behold, he loses the championship. This new Bloodline starts to form. Next thing you know, Roman's fighting Solo. Cody's teaming with Roman, and Roman is a baby face without ever changing." 

On John Cena’s final match:

"I would want it to be Bron Breakker. because he's a heel. It's like, you're not going to give an up-and-coming baby face a victory over a heel John Cena, because the whole point is that nobody's going to beat him. What I would like to see is John Cena to turn babyface with enough time left that he can tell a great story with Drew McIntyre. Although now that Drew McIntyre has gone away, he may be a babyface when he comes back, because I mean the same Roman Reigns rule applies to Drew McIntyre. Everybody's just waiting for the opportunity to express to Drew how much they appreciate him. But if he's going to stay a heel, I would like to see Drew beat John Cena Post World Title loss as a John Cena baby face, and then the very last match is whatever that is, maybe the Saturday Night's Main Event in Boston is the rumor, and I would like it to just be old school. I'm talking Bret Hart, Terry Funk, I mean, literally not kill John Cena. Bron Breakker just gets him with a small package. 123, John Cena made one mistake. Bron Breakker wins. Bron Breakker gets to celebrate. And then, because John Cena didn't get killed, we can then still have a moment for the heels to leave and the babyfaces can come out and congratulate John."

On R-Truth:

"Honestly, the thing that's cool about it is that it is happening when he's 53 years old makes it special. But if he was 33 it'd still be special. It's good work, and it's years of doing stuff that resonates with fans. That's what it is. You've built that equity with the audience, and a lot of it sort of just by trudging along and making things work that otherwise wouldn't have worked, and just taking these little moments and making them memorable, and just making it so that you talk to any wrestling fan and you go, what do you think about R-Truth? I love R-Truth. You could go back to a decade ago, and he's trying to get in the Money in the Bank ladder match, and say my bad. You could go to more recently. I think people breeze by the fact that The Judgment Day felt like it was gonna end a little while ago, and Truth coming in and doing that whole Judgment Day run with Tom and Nick Mysterio and making a joke out of being the top merch seller and trying to give Judgment Day their share of the money and everything like it not only breathed life into R-Truth, but that life was breathed back into the Judgment Day and boosted them for years."

On the more serious side to R-Truth:

"But you forget that he is a two-time NWA World Champion. You forget that he was literally wrestling in the Attitude Era, and has wrestled consistently since 1999. You forget that this is a guy who has seen and done everything and has somehow in this business, not only gotten the entire audience behind him, and this is not a nostalgia act, this is an audience of people who might have started watching wrestling two years ago, and they love R-Truth. But also talk to anybody who works in wrestling. Talk to anybody who's ever shared a locker room with him. He is universally both beloved and respected. And if the audience doesn't get you, the locker room will. And I think that that doesn't happen by accident, and it certainly doesn't happen just by being a fun comedy act. I think that Truth is just the type of performer where it's like, I can do this well, and this is working. I work here. If this is what you would like me to do, I'm gonna do it better than you've ever seen it." 

On the worst-booked match of all time:

"It may be obvious, but it's literally a match that bothered me when I watched it, and it's bothered me every day since. It is in 1997, so it's been a lot of days. I can't tell you the amount of anger that I feel when I think about Starrcade 97. I get so mad when I think about Starrcade 97 more upset than any other wrestling match that's ever existed, and I've seen a ton of them. People need to understand that the nWo was the hottest thing in wrestling, and the Hogan Sting story was the best booked wrestling story, maybe since Hogan Andre like it was incredible. They kept our attention for 16 months, over a year. Sting shows up the night after Fall Brawl 96 and says the only thing that's for sure about Sting is nothing's for sure. And we finally, you talk about getting a payoff. We finally get the payoff in December of 97. This is not only the payoff to Sting and Hogan, this is the payoff to this entire nWo story that we've been so invested in. And then this finish happens, and you're like, What the hell was that? This finish happens where they have a standard count, Hogan just wins. Bret says it was a fast count. You go, what is he talking about? They're going to restart the match. Why? Did the babyface screw the heel to win this thing. And then you follow that up with just the messiest, oh, okay, we'll have a rematch here. Okay, you'll lose the title there. I mean, the whole thing. People talk about the finger poke of doom. People talk about the Goldberg streak ending. It was already done. It was already done because you had the best story in wrestling in 97 going into 98 literally the hottest time up until that point in the history of professional wrestling. All eyes were on you. You had it all. Why didn't WCW beat WWE Oh, I think it was because of Time Warner, the merger. I think it was Vince Russo. I think, no, it was Hogan Sting, Starrcade 97."

On the best entrance of all time:

"It's hard to say that The Undertaker does not have the best entrance of all time. I mean, this is an entrance that people stop watching wrestling, and it's like they remember The Undertaker's entrance. If you show them one thing, it's going to be The Undertaker's entrance. I think if I could pick one Undertaker entrance, there's so many good Undertaker entrances, probably the Limp Bizkit WrestleMania. No, I'm just kidding. I love Limp Bizkit, though, so maybe, and maybe this is just one that I love. I'm not going to sit here and talk to fans and go, like, Nope, this is the best one fight me, like I do with most of my takes. But for me, and it was because I was in the building, is because I was a kid, it was because it was really one of the first times that they said, What can we do with this entrance? I go back to SummerSlam 92 and I go to The Undertaker entering Wembley Stadium in a hearse. And it was just one of those things in 92 you weren't seeing that much spectacle from WWE at that time. You weren't seeing people riding vehicles to the ring. You weren't seeing 88,000 people all watching this show. And to see the Undertaker who was just kind of getting his feet wet in babyface territory, and how this character, because, to me, also, The Undertaker turning babyface is what made it go. Okay, is this like a short-term character that was cool, but I don't know, we kind of ran out of ideas. Or is this a character with real lasting ability, and I think that's why it's so important that that guy played The Undertaker, because nobody else could have pulled that off. But yeah, I think The Undertaker is, that's my like, fight me, The Undertaker is the best. But my favorite Undertaker might be that 92 Summer Slam entrance."

On the most annoying fan chant:

"The most annoying wrestling chant is very easy. 'We want tables' is the most annoying, dumb wrestling chant that exists. And I think Bubba Ray Dudley takes this the wrong way. This is not anti-table. This is not anti-use of tables. It's certainly not anti-Dudley's, perhaps the greatest tag team that's ever existed in professional wrestling. This is anti the execution of 'We want tables' by active wrestling fans. They will chant it in every match where tables may even be a slim possibility, if it's a triple threat, and they're not even really taking advantage of the no DQ, they'll figure out, oh, wait, this is triple threat, no DQ 'We want tables. We want tables.' And it's like, stop with the 'We want tables' for several reasons. Number one, we know you want tables. Everyone knows you want tables. There has never, in the history of professional wrestling, been the use of a table where you go boy, the fans didn't want a table. They're like, nobody's ever going through a table? Boo! We don't want a table. Everybody has always wanted a table. So it goes without saying that you want a table, okay, but understand that tables come at the appropriate times and when people are trying to tell a story in the ring that builds to a certain thing, and you're like, Screw your story. We want a table spot now. We'll get to a table spot, and maybe there will be a table spot in this match. But you know what? Maybe the reason there's not a table spot in this match is because there's gonna be a table spot two matches from now, and you can't do table spots in every single match. But what you could do is not chant. We want tables and have it take away from what is going on in the match. It's disruptive, and there's no getting rid of it. And people go like this, the what chant is worse. The 'What?' chant is not worse. The what chant is hideous. It's terrible, but it's not worse, because the 'What?' chant is avoidable. Stone Cold Steve Austin gave the formula in interviews previously to avoid the what chant, which is just change up your cadence Don't leave these rhythmic gaps open for that what to hit. And you've seen people effectively do it. 'We want tables.' The only way to get around it is to pull out a table. And it's like, we're not pulling out a table right now."

What is Sam Roberts grateful for?

"That Sirius XM has launched a 24-hour wrestling channel and that you accepted my invitation."

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