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Dave Meltzer on 5 Star Matches, TV Ratings, The Business Of Wrestling, AEW, WWE & New Japan
Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) is a wrestling journalist and since 1983 has been the publisher and editor of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter. He joins Chris Van Vliet to talk about how started covering pro wrestling in the 1970s, the matches that made him a fan, the Wrestler Observer Newsletter, how his star rating system works, he explains why wrestlers like Kurt Angle, Rob Van Dam, Chris Benoit, Triple H or Rob Van Dam have never had a 5 star match, his take on the current state of pro wrestling, TV ratings and much more!
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Quote I'm thinking about:
The secret to success is to do the common thing uncommonly well - John D. Rockefeller
“I’m not sure. I mean, I think they think I just rate wrestling matches, which is like the smallest thing that I do, but I do try to do that, too. You know, and that’s recommendations for people who, you know, just like, hey, go out of your way to see this match. And this is how much you should go out of your way to see it is essentially what it is. And then just kind of, you know, the opinions on what are the matches that you should see, matches of the year, you know, things like that. Which is always a great debate, you know, at the end of the year, and during the years. I mean, everybody has the term now match of the year candidate now that you know, I mean, it’s and, you know, so yeah, I add my two cents, like, these are the ones that I think you know, and it’s like, that’s pretty much it. And so I’ve been doing that for a long, long time. It wasn’t my system, but I guess I get credit for it now.”
“Yeah, I know. Like, I mean, it’s one thing it’s one thing like there’s valid complaints, but sometimes, like, you’ll see, you know, things are hitting really strong and the crowd reactions are great. And then trying to say somehow that’s wrong, that’s bad. I mean, I’ve had some people go like, Oh, you know, it’s like, it’s you know, it’s not fair to to watch this stuff now. Because the crowds are so easy, and it’s like, they were easy, you know, when guys are over. It’s always easier. What can you say?”
“And it won’t. Oh, I mean, as far as it was popular. Who knows? I mean, it goes up and down. Like if you go a couple years For the Attitude Era, we’re talking about mid 90s, it was dead. You know what I mean? It was like, that’s a real learning thing. It’s like, it was WWF and WCW. were so weak. And then it, you know, the Monday night wars, and it became the hottest it ever was. And then, you know, things happen. You know, I mean, right now we’re stronger, it’s probably stronger than it’s been in many, many years. I don’t know that it will ever be. I mean, viewership wise, it’ll never be like the Attitude Era, because, you know, TVs changed, life has changed, things like that. And there’s just so many more forms of entertainment out there. But it’s very, very strong, and, you know, people are willing to spend far more money on it than in the Attitude Era. So there is that difference. The crowd is more interesting. It’s a much smarter crowd. It’s not just, you know, I mean, it’s not it’s not as much of a fad as it was in, let’s say, the late 80s, late 90s. But it’s more solid economically than it’s ever been by far.”
“AEW has some shows that are struggling and maybe you know, look when we look at WWE I mean one thing and again when you’re number one, it’s easier to move and be hot. When you’re number two it is tougher. It’s not impossible, but I mean with WWE I think the perfect thing to learn from is it really isn’t that much that changed a lot. I mean, I look at the WWE and its growth and popularity over the last year. I really look at signing Cody Rhodes and of course, The Bloodline angle, and that and then everything else, you know, certain things got cool like singing Seth Rollins’ song, you know, it’s like a real big deal right now. And that all helps. But I mean, it’s really you know, you just have this great Bloodline and one of the greatest angles and scripted things that they’ve done so many years and they’ve gone from doing what I would call well to doing excellent. And you know, you can look at historically when it comes to wrestling, you hit right on a good angle, you know, you can really move the numbers a lot, and you know, AEW is one angle away from it. Now, of course at the same time, you know, it’s like those angles don’t last forever. You know, it’s kind of like, hey, let’s look at the NWO, right? And who I mean WCW just got so popular. But you know, you have to follow up because nothing lasts forever. Well, The Bloodline angle won’t last forever either. You know.”
“I mean, everything having to do with the internet, you know, that’s, that’s it’s changed it and it’s opened it up. And like, news is so much quicker. Like when I started news, you know, it took much more time and rumours spread that weren’t true that stayed, you know, like, for weeks and weeks. Now, you know, things pretty much, you know, it’s a minute by minute thing as opposed to a week by week or month by month. You know, so that’s different. You know, I mean, there’s access to a lot of information and at the same time, it’s really tough in a lot of ways. It’s not tough to get information. But it’s tough because everything is so how would I say this? You know, people have their view, have their sides and they’ve already picked their sides. So if you try to be down the middle, you’re going to be an enemy with everyone. So it’s that. But you know what I mean, there was that probably always existed, but now it just seems more prevalent now than before.”
“I don’t know if I ever did [listen to them]. But I mean, I respond more than I probably should. But like I respond, you know, I always think I’m responding because I’m trying to, you know, explain, you know, why this, you know, premises is wrong and use math and things like that. And I think that the majority watching or watching this will go okay, you know, we learned something from this, and there will be some who will refuse to learn, and I just basically block them and move on. And you basically get one chance you Oh, hey, I didn’t think that way. That’s a great response. Oh, you know, like, whatever, you know, some negative thing, you’re trying to double down and it’s like, okay, you’re not interested in learning, that’s fine. And I don’t have time. So you know, but sometimes, you know, you read it, you go, hey, it’s a good point of view. You know, you learn, you can, you can learn, you have to learn from things like that. But a lot a lot, a lot of it is bad faith. And a lot of it is not even people who you know, sometimes I’ll look and go, like, you don’t even believe what you’re writing. You’re just saying it to get a response, and that’s like a waste.”
“I think in some ways it was [shocking], I was a little surprised. But I mean, the one thing was when the renewal wasn’t done, you know, because Tony had an option on Cody to renew the contract like he did with The Young Bucks and, and others. And when January 1 happened, and there wasn’t a renewal, I mean, and he was out of contract. I mean, to me, that was very interesting. Even then, I didn’t think he was going to WWE. And, you know, I mean, I had contact with him, and he was always like, what were we are negotiating. And then, you know, all of a sudden, it was kind of like, weeks are going by, I mean, mostly assumption, we’re going to work it out. And then all of a sudden, it was like, I wasn’t hearing that anymore. And that’s when it was like, you know, something happened, which obviously, Vince flew down to meet him is what happened. And, you know, and then it became different. And, you know, he accepted the offer, and, you know, the benefit of hindsight, man, what a great move that was for all concerned. Not for AEW, but for, but for Cody. I mean, Cody became a much bigger star than he would have been had he stayed. And WWE, I mean, I thought that, like he would help them a decent amount. But it was way more than I thought. I mean, being the first guy to make that jump, and being a good talker really helped too. But you know, his right place at the right time and instinct and everything like that. And I mean, I think he played it well for him, you know? You know, I mean, he, and if he had never left, he didn’t he’d never be in the spot. If he’d stayed there, he’d been a midcard guy.”
“I just watch the match. And when it’s over, it’s kind of like, what did they accomplish? You know, I mean, did it look good? Did the crowd get off on it? I mean, sometimes the crowd will get off on it, because the two personalities are so strong. Sure. And I don’t necessarily think [it’s good]. I just give an example of Nick Bockwinkel, who was brilliant guy. And he would always say like, if you start the match in the crowds going crazy for the ring entrance. And that’s the hottest part of the match, then how great was the match really, even if the match is much hotter than a match that starts at zero, and you build it up to a level in the entire match, build, build, build, build, build, which to him, and to me as well, is like as the most successful matches. You start at this point, you build, build, build, and you peek at the finish. That’s, you know, which means having a good finish, that doesn’t, but sometimes that, you know, involves like, you know, a lot of people think the most brilliant finishes, you know, all the referee bumps, and the run-ins and all that. And if it works for the crowd, and that’s fine. But a lot of people also hate those finishes, because they want the clean finish. So they get mad. And it’s like, sometimes if it doesn’t work, and people boo at the end or groan, I think groan is worse than booing. But you know, just go, you know, bullsh*t or, you know, whatever, then to me that finished in work. But, you know, it’s like, it’s, it’s certainly about crowd reactions, but it’s not like depths. It’s not necessarily decibel levels, although that’s a big part of it. For sure. You know, if you do a lot of unique cool things, and you know, just do things out of the pattern, do things that kind of, like, shock you like your, I think the one thing with with it’s like, if you’re expecting something and then they do something different and go, Oh my God. If they do that can do that real well, like surprise the audience in a good way where they react. I like that, you know, rather than just pattern. But pattern when it works simple pattern is not wrong either. And, you know, it’s at the end of the day, it’s just kind of like, what’s working and what’s getting the crowd going. And, you know, just execution. It’s a complicated thing, but it’s another way it’s, it’s not complicated. You just kind of watch it and like when it’s over and where the audience is at that moment and how it’s built and everything like that, it’s like, Oh, whatever. And I mean, I know, like, tonnes of people and we’re all, you know, like, we’re all kind of close, you know. But one of the things, it’s like, it’s like, I think people, to me, like, I’ll just give examples, like, if I’m sitting at a show, and my best friend is sitting in with me and go, like, would you give the match and I go four, because I thought it was four and a half. The general thing is, is okay, we agreed, it was a great match is a great match, you’re never going to be like, like my thing. You know, it’s like, you’re not supposed to agree with four and a quarter. But if you think it’s a two, then we disagreed. And there’s nothing wrong with that, either. It’s just what we did was disagree. But sometimes people go like, Oh, you know, why’d you get this for three quarters and not five? And it’s like, well, if i gave it for three quarters and gave it five, and it’s fine, it means we agreed 100% we agreed, that’s a quarter of a star. Of course, that’s, you know, it’s like a movie critic. You know, where it’s just the same thing. If you’re, if you’re within a half star, you agreed, if you’re willing to star you’re pretty much agreeing. You know, if you’re two stars apart, you’re disagreeing.”
“Yeah, he’s had tonnes of four and 3 quarters, which is basically the same thing. I think anything over, to me mentally, anything over four is great. And so if you say I’ve never given Kurt Angle a four star match. But I mean, five, it’s like, it’s like, yeah, could you say that The Chris Benoit match at Royal Rumble was a five star match. I was pretty damn close.”
“There was, you know, I mean, at that time, when I watch, I mean, there’s a couple of things. I mean, number one, when I watched it, I thought this is pretty damn close. And whenever I say pretty damn close, that’s a 4 and 3 quarters star match. I gotta be like, 100%. Okay, so, and I mean, two of the greatest wrestlers, I mean, literally, after that match, which just, you know, I mean, I’d already rated the match, but I just remembered, I mean, these are two of the all time greats. [Someone] Called me up you know, what do you think? And I go, I thought that match is freakin awesome. That match was fantastic. And it’s like, you know, basically, one was if I tried to do a match like that, if I did a match like that, I’d have to fight my way out of the dressing room because so many guys would have heat for me for killing the finisher. And, you know, I mean, and you could say that about a lot of other matches too. But it was a perspective. And then you know, another one was just you know, and I think subconsciously, I thought the same thing. When I Shawn and Undertaker the first one, which was great and I almost did give it five stars. And some people think it’s because of the dive spot that went wrong. It’s like, it really wasn’t, it was, it was, I’m gonna say, there was a predictableness to it, that I could feel, like I knew what they were doing. And sometimes that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But it was so long, and I always knew what they were going to do. And it was thrilling as hell. But it was not, it didn’t give me that, Oh, my God, this was brilliant. It was like, Okay, this is what they were doing, my turn, your turn. And it worked. It was like, again, like, look it won match of the year, I easily could have given it five stars. But whatever it was, you know, when it was over, it was like, I was debating. And I’ve done that at many matches. You know, I mean you know, where it’s just kind of like, you know, is it 4 and 3 three quarters or five? Well, that means it’s four and 3 quarters. When I say that, if I say five, no debate, then it’s fine.”
“Well, I mean, I think, you know, the certain dynamic aspects of it, in the sense of, with New Japan, the wrestlers are, are technically so much better. And they’re also better at building the perfect time for the finishes. And they do, and they do a lot of cross ups where you think you know, what, where they’re going, and then they’re not they take you and they twist you. And with WWE, it is different in the sense that it’s built around repetitiveness. And, you know, teaching the audience to pop for certain moves, and then doing them, and there’s some cross up. But it’s really about repetitiveness, and teaching people to pop for a certain thing, and you do it over and over and over again so they learn, this is where we pop. And in Japan, it is, it certainly exists. But there is a lot more thought to going that one step deeper of, this is where we’re going and they’re about to pop for this, so we’re gonna do this, and then they’re gonna pop even bigger. And so that’s kind of, I think that that’s, you know, they train in basics a lot better. So their stuff looks better. So there’s always that aspect too. And they hit much harder, and I think that that adds to the realism aspect. You know, I mean, it’s just, you know, yeah, it’s just, it’s, it’s harder hitting, it’s better technical. I mean, I’m talking to the top level, I’m not saying that there aren’t guys in, in, in anywhere, in every company who do that, or can do that. But it’s definitely more of a thing. And, you know, so that’s probably where, you know, the New Japan matches, well, you know, and but again, like people who watch everything, you know, the New Japan matches usually end up getting, I mean, any of these, you know, not just me, but everyone you can look at Cage Match or you know, Grapple when it existed, or, or, you know, it was, it was it was consistent, you know, I would look at some of those and go like, man, you know, unless it’s like a historical WWE match at WrestleMania, which, which I actually think that a lot of Mania matches because they’re at Mania kind of get overrated, but that’s a good thing. It’s actually a good thing that you don’t have to do as much, but you’re at Mania, so it makes it a little bit more special. That aside from those, it’s very difficult to see a WWE match near the top of those lists at the end of the year.”
“That’s an interesting thing. I at the time, it was very, very hard to get a five star match. And I mean, it still is it’s super hard. The only difference is that guys are so much better now. Like like if I look back at my match that I would have given five stars, and I look back 30 years I look at it, and there are exceptions. And they’re usually you know, like in Japan Believe it or not, but but for the but for the men but even in Japan I mean I’ve seen like, you know match that I’d given five stars that I would look and go like as a four and a quarter four and a half star match today.”
“Look, we’re talking about matches from decades ago. I think that probably you know what I mean? Like, maybe, maybe we should, but I don’t look back. I’m looking at the future. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it’s probably I was probably wrong on that one. In some ways. I mean, heat wise of course, but it’s all about memories. You know, it’s like that match. You know, two other guys did that same match move for move? It would have been nothing special. But, you know, that’s part of it. And maybe that’s what I was going like, Okay, if the, if any two of the guys. I mean, but yeah, it should have been for probably Sure. Why not? If you want, whatever, you know, it’s like, when I watched it, the day I watched it, it was very predictable to me. And maybe that was the problem, you know, that I knew everything they were going to do when they did it. And which isn’t necessarily bad either. Because that is always you know, whatever.”
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