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Cody Rhodes On Turning Heel, The Rock, WrestleMania 40, Homelander, Finishing The Story
Cody Rhodes (@CodyRhodes) is a professional wrestler currently signed to WWE and is reigning as the Undisputed Champion. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Toronto to discuss the night he won the WWE Championship at WrestleMania and what happened next, the twists and turns that led to the eventual victory, whether turning heel turn will ever happen, comparisons to Homelander, his thoughts on The Rock and the mystery item that was given to him on the Raw after WrestleMania, whether anyone crossed the line with their promos leading up to WrestleMania, making every night special for the fans and more!
Quote I'm thinking about: “The key to success is to start before you're ready.” – Marie Forleo
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“Well with the behind the scenes documentary, that’s really as far as I think you should ever go. Not because I don’t want people to know, but the legend is supposed to be cooler than the fact. So watching the documentary the other night, I feel like people have all these questions and there’s kind of these different outlooks and takes and I like that more than someone definitively saying no, here’s actually what happened. Plus, I like that Rock, Roman, me, Seth and Triple H all look like we were involved with a bank heist, but have different stories when we got caught by the cops. Like everybody in the interrogation [says] it was him, it was him, it was me… I do like that.”
“I didn’t sleep. I went right to The Today Show, I laid in a bunk and I texted a bunch of people, including The Undertaker. And now Undertaker has a podcast and a stage show so things you might say could become public knowledge, these legends, that’s what they do. I left him what I would say as a rambling, perhaps intoxicated little rant just thanking him for being there. It’s the frickin sheriff. But yeah, immediately after, I said it in the behind-the-scenes documentary, but it’s really how I felt. I was almost worried there’d be a sense of completion, this sense of fullness. I was genuinely concerned like, well, the story is over. But as soon as it was done, it felt like literally [I was] 10 feet tall, felt bulletproof, felt younger, felt faster, like just didn’t feel grizzled at all, to the point where I thought, Oh, this is going to be a lot of fun. But what do we do next?”
“Have you ever watched the show Parks and Rec? Okay, so there’s a really great episode, she is running for city council and there’s a guy who hates her, and for no reason. He just has a thing and hates her. She throws his bowling night and ultimately at the bowling night she’s not supposed to be putting time in on him. But she clearly is trying to turn him and the message is that that’s never going to happen. With me, that’s where I feel very comfortable these days, I’d rather rock and party with the people who were part of all this and the fans vs. it’s nice to prove fans right, it’s also nice to prove critics wrong, but it’s not my main focus. Feel like for a long time chip on the shoulder, you wanted to turn them, change them and you can to some degree, but I feel like when you do that you discard the ones who are right. They’re like, hey, we got your back, why are you so focused on this?”
“You want to know something funny about grabbing kids out of the crowd? Sometimes you see a body and you think wow, that cosplay is great. That’s perfect. I’m gonna have he or she do the Whoa with me. And then you don’t realize because maybe they’re not standing on their chair, you don’t realize that you just picked up a 15-year-old, like over 100 pounds, you know what I mean? Like, it’s kind of funny, you’ll see my hands go under, I’m always assuming it’s like an eight-year-old. And then it’s just sometimes you get, it’s like getting a real big fish. It’s like you’re proud of it, but also have man, I gotta get you back over the rail. It’s so funny. I don’t have the best eye for it. [Do you pick them out ahead of time?] No, Nia Jax is pretty good about when she’s on the live events and she’s been skipping some live events lately, which I don’t like, at all. Road Dogg needs to put her on the live events. Now, she’s good about saying Bayley is also good about this as well saying, hey, there’s a kid out there, they’re in x row, and that’s, that’s super helpful, not ribbing actually, they’d find a good spot. But usually on the way out, I got a good head on a swivel, because now we’re wrestling so much the wrestling is never secondary. Oh my gosh. But you might have that down to the point where you’re able to free yourself up to look around, WWE has more signs now, it’s coming back, and to see them and just have a moment with each person to thank them for being there for me.”
“So there’s like a lot of discussion on the stuff I do at the end of the night at the shows. Internally, I think people thought WWE has been really great about hey, yes, it takes longer and we have to break the ring down 45 minutes to an hour later but we like this. It was kind of new to WWE it’s almost this thing that I took from the independent scene, just everywhere I go stay until the very end. If you kick me out, no problem if there’s a curfew no problem like that’s fine. Drag me out. But I don’t think of it that way. I love that, I hope it is a core memory. I hope people do have something that they remember and selfishly probably I’m hoping that I’m their guy. But I sincerely just really enjoy it. One of the things I think Roman Reigns called me political and I thought it didn’t shake me at all, he didn’t hurt because I thought, no, it seems political. And maybe it looks political, but it’s not. I just like this. You don’t know how long you’re going to have. You don’t know how many spins around the earth you get and don’t know how many times you’re going to be the kind of the North Star of the wrestling business. So I just really enjoy it.”
“That’s a great question. I would hope, and again, I don’t know if all wrestlers are as aware as we’d like to be about how we are in a group setting, in the world, not revolving around us. I think once I left WWE the first time and went out and did my own thing, I think I kind of ceased to be a character and just accepted the fact that present the self that you want to be, that’s where the suits and stuff came from present yourself. But, be yourself. Actually so no, I don’t feel I’m in character now. But it’s something that I’ve kind of lived and dreamed out loud with my career and what I want stating here’s the goals at the end. As shocking as it is to say, sometimes I wish there was a little bit more of a character that I could hide into, because it feels like again, you have questions. You don’t have to have questions because you know me. So a scary thing like that doc that just came out in my own documentary. Part of that’s a little intimidating. In the world they know you, they have a sense of you, and they can wrap an opinion around it. And it’s just again being vulnerable and being out there. It’s the wrestlers. I grew up loving the big, bombastic, loud talkers and bright colors, and you didn’t know who they were. With me the individual that caught on was me. And it can be a burden in addition to being amazing, but it can be a burden as well.”
“Everything wrapped around that. You got to kind of relate back to or credit back to Triple H and Nick Khan and Bruce Prichard. They understood there’s a difference between, hey, I want to get my buddy on this show or hey, this is a friend but it’s really a niche market that might understand it. They understood what I was just telling you earlier that this has been lived out loud in front of them. She’s a huge part of that. A massive part of that. She’s not a stand behind you type, she’s a stand next-to-you type. So it was very nice that they wanted that to happen. It was even more special. I was touched how great the wrestling fans were to her. Because I think if you’re around the business long enough, you look at your social and stuff. You look at things in a vacuum, you have peaks, you have valleys, I don’t think she remembered how cool they can be as an audience. And that was really nice to hear the reaction they had for [Brandi]. To me, it will be my favorite entrance ever. And it’s very simple. You know, there was the prelude, Brian Fadem at WWE helped get all that together. It was this Prelude music that they let me pick and then to rise up and Jason Baker, who developed a lot of the stuff for The Fiend, had come up with making the tattoo an actual mask and he did mind-blowing job, that’s my favorite entrance ever. And it’s very simple, minus the pyro, it’s relatively cost-effective.”
“Depends on what line. When you’re the director of the board, you can do whatever you want. The show is not going off the air and no one’s getting fired if you do something that’s a little outrageous. That gave him free rein to develop and enter into The Final Boss. [you turned the Rock heel]. Well what happened with The Rock at WrestleMania 40 is the first time I ever believed in my own hype. So first time I ever thought, oh, maybe someone from this generation did get over. Because to me, I tell my students I tell people all the time nobody today is over. Because you hear over all the time and to me over is you can’t step a foot out your house without cameras, without a moment. I just have a loftier opinion of over, John Cena is over. This is the first time I thought oh, maybe maybe that’s happening. Line wise, the only line I think he crossed was he made my sister Teil non-canon because he had mentioned that I had two other siblings and that being Dustin and Kristen who are from my dad’s first marriage, which is you know, you’re not wrong that I do have them, and he was explaining [that] when he called me a mistake. But he made Teil non-canon and Teil was like the closest I have this is my original best friend. You know, so that was a little I felt bad. I felt bad for her. I feel Mama Rhodes is a person who never wanted to be ever on camera. And now you got a security guard in Heathrow Terminal Airport. If he thought that was a line that he was crossed, I feel maybe it actually backfired because she’s now a part of it all.”
“I feel maybe I crossed the line. I did a promo where I said he had LDS. Actually, I feel like a lot of people liked the interview and got a nice round of applause when I came back through the curtain but it felt so off-brand for me. Because we have so many young kids that I felt like this one guy is the guy that I’m gonna go to these lengths for. And maybe that’s what makes this all click this genuine animosity and smile at each other but probably deeply dislike one another. If he’s the one who’s gonna bring it out to me. It’s probably good TV, but it did feel a little, I guess icky in the moment.”
“It’s very important that whenever I talk about The Rock and I feel like I’ve talked about him a lot, people have a lot of questions about him and things of that nature. Very important, he is my boss, which he’s not on the ground as much so you don’t remember, but he’s my boss. He is one of the biggest if not the biggest name that ever came from pro wrestling. I mean, there’s an argument. Some people don’t even make the argument, if you’re looking at your Hulk Hogans, your Austins, Rocks, he’s a Mount Rushmore wrestler. He then went on to be the biggest star in the world in terms of film and Hollywood and a modern action hero when we needed one. If Rock decided today he’s going to run for President of the United States my gosh, he would win in a landslide. He’s just one of the most recognizable people on the planet. I’m sure he’ll explain down the road what it was and I’m sure his kind of, what would you call Brian Gewirtz to him? Extremely talented individual Brian Gewirtz who kept Raw on track for years and years and years, but he’s kind of a Starscream to Rock’s Megatron. I’m sure Brian will do some media where he puts something out there or skews the timeline. Again, utmost respect for both of them.”
“Offer still stands. And again, if he never comes back, he’s done it all. He really has. And as much as I insulted him previously, it was an honor to be part of his last outing. But what I learned physically in the ring with him, it shouldn’t be his last outing. There’s more. There’s not just gas left in the tank, there might be multiple tanks. There’s more and I would like the WWE Universe or pro wrestling fans. I’d like them to see that. I think there’s a world where [he’s the] WWE Director the Board great. But I think there’s a world with WWE really benefits and this young audience being able to connect with him they don’t know him as the people’s champ they know him as The Final Boss. That offer stands whenever.”
“There’s a group of people who were visiting and who kept coming on my bus. And at one point, we just had to have a full hey, I need you guys to know what’s about to happen. And everyone who was in that group knows it is one of the best and worst days of my professional career. It somehow was both. If you watch closely after I win, and I kind of like hunched down over the mat. I am saying I’m sorry, I’m saying I’m sorry multiple times. And looking at people dead in the eye saying I’m sorry because I knew pretty much to a degree based on what Triple H had told me that it probably isn’t going to happen and I was as lost as I have ever been. So here I am. We’re talking about am I in character? I had lived my life to finally find myself finally have all the utmost confidence. And it was the lowest I’ve ever felt, but also I just won the Royal Rumble for the second time. That’s a life-changing moment. How can you not appreciate that and enjoy it and feel it? But that was a very rough day. And I kind of apologized to my colleagues and peers around me because I was forgetful. I was in the ring I might have been a little forgetful but I was also trying my hardest to make it seem like that meeting had never happened knowing it had happened and you know having a look at Punk in the eyes and Wonder like do you know? And I never had this discussion with him, do you know what’s happening? But it was also, I freely discuss it because the documentary is out there and everyone’s told their story and all that, but it was just a very, very tough day. I have great relationships with some of the top brass at WWE really huge respect. And it got shaken a little bit. But also I realize the burden, like I mentioned, this is the problem with being yourself. You can’t not sell this, you can’t not hide this, if you were playing, the astronaut characters, it’s a different thing, the astronaut characters winning the Royal Rumble but not wrestling at Wrestlemania. In this case, I felt like I was, I took it personally. And it was a nice reminder, not to take anything personally in wrestling. And if anybody who’s in the I’ve worked in management, I’ve done this, I should know that more than anybody. So I had to walk out of that room and not take it personally.”
“With all the love I have for The Boys and his [Anthony Starr's] performance as Homelander, the entire cast, and their production is first class, what a production. The robe is not based on it. The robe is based on military dress uniforms. It’s the little bit of scales, the gold on my bigger robe that has the eagles and of course, the blonde hair and I think the AEW run where people thought I’m pretending to be a good guy but I’m actually a bad guy, which maybe it was what was happening? I think that’s where it really became 'Is gonna go full Homelander?' Truthfully, Homelander the character is a terrible human being.”
“You can do whatever. WWE is such a hot ticket now. It moves on. It’s great to have a quarterback, great to have franchise players or top stars, whatever it might be, but it’s going to move on with or without you there, someone will fill that spot. Social media for pro wrestling is very important and you’ll hear people try to say it’s not important, you’ll hear people say they’re just trolls. I think you need to know what a troll really is. This is a real person who probably has a pretty good high-paying job. This is how they release. This is their event, whatever. This is my weird psychology or theory on trolls. But with all that said, there’s a whole section, a huge section of WWE audience that’s not actively on social, they have it, they do stuff on it, but that is not their bread and butter. They’re not dictated to by it. Whereas some of the other independent and smaller promotions are dictated to by social media so we have to always look at it. “We want Cody” is a prime example. Is this social media or is this bigger? It only became bigger when we showed up in that arena on Monday and they started chanting it in real time. That’s where you know the difference between a fad, between this thing and something that okay, this is a wave that’s far far bigger. It could happen for sure. I just don’t see it happening.”
“I hated that in The Young Bucks’ book they said I was last to the signing. Because that’s a big thing. Some of the AEW defenders who don’t realize they’re turning people off to their product more than they’re turning people on. That’s one of the things that people always cite, Oh, he was last, he wasn’t that big a deal to the origin. No. This guy here who’s off camera was the first person to ever meet Tony and he met him in a vetting process for all of us. So yes, I guess I was the last and yes, I had different thoughts and it’s not incorrect at all what they said. Yeah, it’s not incorrect but I was just in on it as well as anybody else.”
“Healthy family, the WWE Championship and the opportunity to take this story and remain interesting.”
